- comment
heckman - body
- WOW. Guess you missed Father Rooney's leadership at using this to bring the community together. Looks like you want to put it asunder. Maybe you would prefer Latin Mass?
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- Fr. Rooney needs our prayers, as do all of our priests.
What would certainly put things asunder would be to introduce novelties, such as confrontational commentary and female altar servers...
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- What's wrong with having a Latin mass?
Our letter and prayers are on the way.
- comment PugnusDei
- body
- Heckman,
Leadership is not waiting for a council to make up its mind through majority vote as to whether HE will allow alter girls in HIS parish or not.
Leadership is taking a public stance as to whether HE wishes to give into liberal demands for alter girls or not and telling the council that HE is the head of the parish and HE will make the decision. THAT is leadership.
Jesus said, "Be hot or be cold, but if you are lukewarm, I will spit you from my mouth!" Strong spiritual leaders don't wait for the polls to come in before they make pastoral decisions, and they know very well what is theologically and spiritually sound.
The allowance of alter girls is a move by liberals is mass conditioning towards the allowance of woman priests (which is theologically impossible).
P.S. The Latin Mass is true to theological and magesterial principles ... alter girls are not.
- comment Tom James (aka Brave Hart)
- body
- I say let the women run the world and I'll stay back at the hive like a drone bee and impregnate the queen and beg for food.
- comment Rick Sincere
- body
- So does this mean that only one diocese in the United States (Lincoln) continues to prohibit female altar servers?
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- Yes, though North America and Western Europe are the only parts of the globe that permit it.
The bishops in Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe do not permit the practice, though in those parts of the world the demand for women's ordination is low to non-existent.
Women's ordination screws everything up. If not for that movement, there probably wouldn't be much of a distinction -- it would be similar to allowing extraordinary ministers for communion. But because altar servers participate closely with the priest during the Mass... a different message is sent (or perceived).
The real question is how to you allow the practice of female altar servers while sending a strong message to the women's ordination crowd that their behavior and demands are antithetical to Catholic teaching?
- comment heckman
- body
- WOW. easy to get shot at here!
The following was written by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum....
"From the point of view of liturgical law, an official interpretation of Canon 230, Paragraph 2, of the Code of Canon law on the possibility of delegating certain liturgical offices led to a 1994 letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments clarifying that girls may serve at the altar. But bishops are not bound to permit them to do so, nor could the episcopal conference limit the bishop's faculty to decide for himself"
Shaun, you quote this....
The 1994 letter states: "It will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue."
But you take it out of context... you leave out this...
The letter also recommends to bishops to consider "among other things the sensibilities of the faithful, the reasons which would motivate such permission and the different liturgical settings and congregations which gather for the Holy Mass."
...also...
"It is important not to focus this debate using political categories such as rights, equality, discrimination, etc., which only serves to fog the issue. We are dealing with the privilege of serving in an act of worship to which NOBODY has any inherent rights.
"The question should be framed as to what is best for the good of souls in each diocese and parish. It is thus an eminently pastoral and not an administrative decision, and this is why it should be determined at the local level."
Let's all pray for one another.
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- The issue Fr. Narmara specifically addresses is where the allowance of female altar servers would be construed as an endorsement of women's ordination, *or* an instance where people have a right to participate in the Mass.
The context you cite I deliberately left out, but for the opposite reasons. In the Diocese of Arlington, the "sensibilities of the faithful" are much more conservative than elsewhere in the United States. In fact, by citing that, you make an argument *against* female altar servers in Arlington -- not in favor. I didn't want to use a coercive argument such as that, hence the reason why I deliberately omitted that paragraph from my commentary.
I do appreciate the fact you read the ZENIT article, and the kind tone we've all taken so far. Remember that 50% of what you read online, you misunderstand the tone!
I'm sure our priests will do what is right, but I fear two things: (1) that any admission of female altar servers plays into the hands of heterodox organizations such as Catholics Speak Out, and (2) that lines will be drawn between parishes that allow and do not allow female altar servers, and parishes will identify themselves as "progressive" or "conservative" according to their customs during the Mass.
Given those considerations, I hope that we do not allow female altar servers in Arlington, much less in the Fredericksburg area (St. Mary, St. Patrick, St. Matthew, St. William of York, St. Jude). As petty as the issue might be, it will only divide the faithful in changes are made.
- comment PugnusDei
- body
- Regardless of what Fr. McNamara said, I would like to take a moment to point out that the 1980 prohibition on female altar servers has never been lifted.
The following is taken from: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9305fea2.asp
The directive covering the liturgical ministry of women is given in the official liturgical instruction Inaestimabile Donum (no. 18), which says, "There are various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: These include reading the word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the prayer of the faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers."
If that doesn't convince you, perhaps a 1991 letter, signed by Msgr. C. Sepe, the Vatican Secretariat of State, will:
"I am writing in reply to your letter to the Holy Father concerning the possibility of girls acting as altar servers. The Church's traditional discipline in this regard was reaffirmed in the instruction Inaestimabile Donum, issued by the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship on April 3, 1980, and it remains in force."
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- That doesn't explain why the Vatican allows the practice of female altar servers...
- comment PugnusDei
- body
- Has it? I have seen a lot written by "theologians" which seem to allow altar girls, but the only official documents on the matter that I can find speak only in prohibition of the practice.
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- There's prohibitions against female acolytes.
There are no prohibitions against female altar servers, except (1) where local custom rejects the practice, and (2) such a move would be interpreted as the introduction of heterodox opinions such as women's ordination, etc.
- comment the nut
- body
- I'm left wondering how it is "theologically impossible" for a woman to become a priest? Further, I'm wondering why women becoming priests will "never happen?"
Because, if you look at the Episcopal Church, women have been priests for quite a while. And, shocker, we've also elected an openly gay bishop!
And if I do remember correctly, it was women who helped jump start Christianity, prophetizing and all that. Was it not Mary M. who was deemed the 13th apostle, the apostle of the apostles? I do believe she was the true follower, believing in the resurrection then was told to go and tell everyone else - men - who did.not.listen. Surprise I know.
It seems that your support of women and girls being *disallowed* (this isn't a word btw) from leadership/service roles in the church is only injecting sexism into a faith that supposes to love everyone equally.
Can anyone prove to me why women shouldn't be priests, servers or acolytes other than that we have a vagina?
- comment the nut
- body
- Oh, btw, would you join any organization/religion, etc. that discriminates against you just because you are white and/or have a penis? No? Then don't knock those of us who choose not to be Catholics for the same reason.
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- I'm not sure I would use an "election" of a gay bishop, which caused entire churches to cut ties with the Episcipalians as a shinging ray of light of eternal fulfillmant.
Why Females will not be ordained: On May 22, 1994, Pope John Paul II issued the encyclical “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis” which stated, among other things "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. LK 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful”
On October 28, 1995, the Doctrine of Faith headed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) confirmed that this teaching was an infallibe teaching of the church.
This goes along with the entire history of the Church, which Jesus himself founded, and is consistant with Jesus's *choosing* (this is not a word btw) of his apostles to be male.
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- Mary has a more important role than the apostles ever had. She was the mother of Christ. She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. If anybody is to be held up that the Church isn't discriminating against women, it is the love and devotion true Catholics recieve and return to Mary.
Mary Magdalene was not an apostle chosen by Christ, but was a great disciple which all of us can learn from her example of her faith and obediance towards Christ.
Woman have a vitale role in the Church, just as they have the same vitale role a family. The roles may not be the same in description, but that does not mean they aren't equal accomplishments.
Last time I checked, males weren't trying to break down the convent gates trying to get in. Is that reverse descrimination?
The Church doesn't discriminate against anyone. Just because they don't support the "feel good society" certain requirments have been passed down by God that must be faithfully followed to each persons' greatest abilty.
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- Somehow I get the feeling - even if I offered an explanation to "the nut" - I don't think it would suffice.
Thanks for taking a stab at it Mark! That's good stuff!
- comment the nut
- body
- "The Church doesn't discriminate against anyone."
Then what do you call not allowing gays/women to be ordained and/or take leadership positions in the church? From my definition of discrimination, this entirely applies.
Because you honor and *love* both Mary's doesn't mean you don't discriminate in the here and now. If women play such an important role in both the Church and society, why not treat them equally, allowing them to accomplish the same things you can?
And dude. Discriminiation is discrimination regardless of who's doing it so the whole "reverse" doesn't apply.
There have been women ordained as Catholic priests. 7 of them in 2001 actually, done via Canada.
Men and women used to serve in monasteries together. In fact, the Abbess exists because she would often oversee both women and men. Then someone decided that, *shock* women are inherently different only because we have a vagina and thought separation was in order.
(And yes, choosing is indeed a word.)
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- There is a difference between your "discrimination" of gays and that of women. Acting out on your gay tendencies is inherently in violation of God's laws and the bible. Thus those that violate this law and are proud of it, should not be held in example of Jesus' image.
Was God discriminating against men since he doesn't allow them to become pregnant and give birth? Is it discriminatory to not allow non-Catholics to receive the Eucharist?
Discrimination of women would be to not allow them to participate in the Church in any way. Make them sit in the back of the Church while the more important Men do the real worship.
Just as non-Catholics can’t receive the sacraments of the Church, divorced members of the Church can't remarry in the Church without an annulment, these are laws set forth that all true Catholics must accept. There is only one Pope, even though many people, including many cafeteria Catholics, think they can act as pope and decide the rules for themselves.
As stated before, women are not allowed to be Priests because it has been decreed by the Pope, and affirmed by the Doctrine of Faith to be an infallible teaching of the Church. It’s as simple as Christ established Peter as the head of his Church and the apostles became the first bishops. The current Church is a direct line from the time of Christ. Who’s to say the Christ had it wrong???
Women play such an important rule in the Church and society because they are different. That is how God designed it to be. Treating men and women “equally” would hurt the church more than help. Just as the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests can't accomplish the same things in their current roles, each has a vital mission in the Church. Men and women can't accomplish the same things, but each of them has a vital role in their individual accomplishments.
Any "ordination" done to have women as priests has been in violation of Roman Catholic law, is not approved of, and they are not Priest and have not authority to act or claim to be Priest. If you can show me where Rome has accepted the women ordination, I would be intrigued to see it.
Can you show me where there was a stance by some decision maker to get rid of the dual monasteries? It seems to me that they just kind of decided that is was better for each of their communities to be separated. Traditional Catholic monasteries are thriving on their own separate paths and they don’t seem to feel “discriminated’ against.
- comment Galway
- body
- Shaun,
You really seem to have a problem with the opposite gender, whether it's girls serving at the altar or women being ordained someday.
Recall that nothing in the Gospels would give us reason to prohibit these roles for women in the Church. In fact, Jesus welcomed female disciples and some of the most powerful teachings come from His interactions with women. It was women who first gave testimony to the resurrection.
Perhaps you should seek professional help for your gender problems and quit trying to drive wedges in the community of faithful. Men who are secure in their manhood don't try to control women and limit their potential.
- comment heckman
- body
- So it is not as nice as we might like it.Easy to get lost in this fog...
Discriminating taste is good. Discriminating is good. Prejudice is discrimination without facts or justification, and that is bad.
I am not a medical doctor, because the medical schools discriminated against me... and that is good. I do not play basketball for the NBA because the NBA discriminates against me because I was not born with (nor developed) a body that could compete; most would say that is some pretty good discrimination. And in the end, I expect God will discriminate when He judges me, and that is what will make all the difference in the universe.
So I guess I'm a little more concerned about the final judgement for myself (and I pray for all you as well.) I'm not certain that when my soul is considered by the Almighty that whether or not we had female alter servers will even come up for consideration.
I would state that most young girls I know would do a better job of serving and housekeeping that young boys.... So I'd welcome ALL to serve as would the conservative priest that most influenced me during my formative years.
God bless us one & all.
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- Galway, I'm sure you were directing you're comments to me since Shaun hasn't opined lately, but you could be commenting on his orginal post. Anyway, Jesus calls all men and women of Earth to become his desciples, however, only called men to be is Apostiles, which the Church sprang from - as noted earlier. Many women have been great influences in the role of the Catholic Church - Mother Theresa and Mother Angelica to name a few recent ones.
There are many beliefs of the Catholic Church that aren't specifically spelled out in the gospels. I'm pretty sure the gospels don't specifically spell out the structure of the mass, like the language to be spoken, the way the priest faces the congregation, which songs to sing and when, which prayers should be said at what times, when to kneel and bow, etc, etc, etc... This was developed over time through the leaders of the Church, most important among those is the Pope. This decision includes women as priest - which was discussed earlier, and the allowance of female alter servers only as needed because of the congregation size and needs - as Shaun has laid out in the main part of the blog.
I'm not trying to drive a "wedge" into the community of the faithful, but trying to enlighten the faithful on what the teachings of the Church are. Sadly, many Catholics today don't go even follow the fundamental teachings of the Church, I'm not surprised that they would want to "change the roles" to what the feel is right. Not allowing women to be priests is by no way limiting their potential. Mother Theresa and Mother Angelica have had a greater positive impact on this society then many priests today.
Also, my wife says I don't have problems with the opposite gender (I asked)
Heckman,
I'm sure God will judge each person on his own merits, but he calls us to defend his teachings and the faith.
I'm sure there are some girls that would act as good stewards on the alter, and there are boys that don't act appropriately. Those boys should be dealt with and taught how important their role is by either their Priests or their parents. This just goes to show how lax people have become about their dress and actions are at mass. Those that are capable should be dressed appropriately as they come to worship. This still doesn't justify allowing girls to be altar servers unless there is a need in the parish for it. At St. Mary's we do not have that need and all of our boys are dressed appropriately.
- comment Mike
- body
- Nut,
There is a small, but incredibly relevant passage in the book of Numbers.
In Numbers chapter 16, a man named Core, amongst 250 other prominent Israelites, protested following Moses and his laws anymore. In fact, when Moses rebuked them, he asked:
"Is it a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath spared you from all the people, and joined you to Himself, that you should serve Him in the service of the tabernacle, and should stand before the congregation of the people, and should minister to Him?
Did he therefore make thee all thy brethren the sons of Levi to approach unto Him, that you should challenge to yourselves the priesthood also, and that all thy company should stand against the Lord?"
What Moses is saying is that these individuals had decided that they should elevate themselves to the priesthood, which is an afront to God Himself. In essence, they wish to make their own laws (because they no longer wish to follow Moses, whose laws should they follow other than their own?) and worship God in their own manner. Basically, this was the jewish, pre-Christ version of the Protestant Revolt (which is, incidentally, essentially what the current push for women's ordination is as well).
Please let me describe what happened to these people who decided that they no longer wished to follow God's appointed authority, wished to worship in their own manners, and wished to live according to their own moral/spiritual laws:
Numbers 16: 30-33 - (Moses is speaking about possible consequences for Core and his revolters) But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into Hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke assunder under their feet:
And opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance.
And they went down alive into Hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people."
When you read further, God sent a plague to destroy any who persisted in the revolt, killing 14,700 people.
When one examines this small, but incredibly significant incident, one must wonder why people persist in questioning the authority God places on this earth. When Jesus gave the Keys to Heaven to Peter, and founded His church upon him, granting him the authority to bind and loose sin and law both in Heaven and on earth, and that authority was passed from Peter to Linus, and then from Linus to Cletus, and so forth.
It has been stated rather firmly that women, who hold a prominent place in the Church, can no more change bread and wine to the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and a man can give birth to a baby.
Furthermore, it has been stated rather clearly both in Catholic Doctrine and in Scripture that homosexuality is an abominable sin which "cries to Heaven for vengeance"!
Now, as to your aversion to the word "discriminate", I shall say this rather plainly ... when I look at applicants to my school for potential teachers, I have to discriminate against all those who could be a potential threat to the integrity of the school, its mission, the students, and the faculty. If a man, who is either anti-Catholic (I am in charge of a school offering a Catholic education), a pedophile, a homosexual , a murderer, or in some other way incompatible with the mission, teachings, and culture of the school, then there is no way that I will hire this individual. The same is true in regards to the priesthood.
I'll address the theological reasons why women can't be priests in another post ... this one is long enough. :)
- comment Mike
- body
- Galway,
Rather than attacking Shaun, why not address the matter as regards the Church itself?
Please read the following article, and see for yourself what the Church teaches, infallibly, about female ordination.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201sbs.asp
- comment Mike
- body
- As for women's ordination not being addressed in the New Testament ...
For one thing, nowhere did Christ ever commission women to teach in His name and with His authority.
In fact, St. Paul explicitly forbids women to attempt to perform such functions.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent."
Thus saith St. Paul. Not even the Pope has the authority to overturn such a decree. If it was possible for a woman to be ordained as a priest, then she would receive all the faculties of a priest, and one such faculty is granting absolution for sins (the sacrament of pennance). In order for a woman to be able to perform such a function, she would have to have authority over the one being absolved, which according to St. Paul is not possible.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 14:34:
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says."
People who advocate the ordination of women in the Church seem to believe that they know more about Christianity than St. Paul.
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- Mike and Mark have struck the point home.
Proponents of women's ordination will throw up all sorts of invective. Rarely do you find the proponent willing to debate the subject in terms of theology or salvation history.
Good stuff gentlemen.
- comment P2B12
- body
- I'm a female and hope girls are NOT admitted...
The way I look at it is, if it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.
There are plenty of places for me to serve - the altar is not one of them. I even refused a request to become an EEM (and volunteered my husband).
We like the Latin and would like to see more of it.
We continue to pray for our priests.
28 Comments:
What would certainly put things asunder would be to introduce novelties, such as confrontational commentary and female altar servers...
Our letter and prayers are on the way.
Leadership is not waiting for a council to make up its mind through majority vote as to whether HE will allow alter girls in HIS parish or not.
Leadership is taking a public stance as to whether HE wishes to give into liberal demands for alter girls or not and telling the council that HE is the head of the parish and HE will make the decision. THAT is leadership.
Jesus said, "Be hot or be cold, but if you are lukewarm, I will spit you from my mouth!" Strong spiritual leaders don't wait for the polls to come in before they make pastoral decisions, and they know very well what is theologically and spiritually sound.
The allowance of alter girls is a move by liberals is mass conditioning towards the allowance of woman priests (which is theologically impossible).
P.S. The Latin Mass is true to theological and magesterial principles ... alter girls are not.
The bishops in Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe do not permit the practice, though in those parts of the world the demand for women's ordination is low to non-existent.
Women's ordination screws everything up. If not for that movement, there probably wouldn't be much of a distinction -- it would be similar to allowing extraordinary ministers for communion. But because altar servers participate closely with the priest during the Mass... a different message is sent (or perceived).
The real question is how to you allow the practice of female altar servers while sending a strong message to the women's ordination crowd that their behavior and demands are antithetical to Catholic teaching?
The following was written by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum....
"From the point of view of liturgical law, an official interpretation of Canon 230, Paragraph 2, of the Code of Canon law on the possibility of delegating certain liturgical offices led to a 1994 letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments clarifying that girls may serve at the altar. But bishops are not bound to permit them to do so, nor could the episcopal conference limit the bishop's faculty to decide for himself"
Shaun, you quote this....
The 1994 letter states: "It will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue."
But you take it out of context... you leave out this...
The letter also recommends to bishops to consider "among other things the sensibilities of the faithful, the reasons which would motivate such permission and the different liturgical settings and congregations which gather for the Holy Mass."
...also...
"It is important not to focus this debate using political categories such as rights, equality, discrimination, etc., which only serves to fog the issue. We are dealing with the privilege of serving in an act of worship to which NOBODY has any inherent rights.
"The question should be framed as to what is best for the good of souls in each diocese and parish. It is thus an eminently pastoral and not an administrative decision, and this is why it should be determined at the local level."
Let's all pray for one another.
The context you cite I deliberately left out, but for the opposite reasons. In the Diocese of Arlington, the "sensibilities of the faithful" are much more conservative than elsewhere in the United States. In fact, by citing that, you make an argument *against* female altar servers in Arlington -- not in favor. I didn't want to use a coercive argument such as that, hence the reason why I deliberately omitted that paragraph from my commentary.
I do appreciate the fact you read the ZENIT article, and the kind tone we've all taken so far. Remember that 50% of what you read online, you misunderstand the tone!
I'm sure our priests will do what is right, but I fear two things: (1) that any admission of female altar servers plays into the hands of heterodox organizations such as Catholics Speak Out, and (2) that lines will be drawn between parishes that allow and do not allow female altar servers, and parishes will identify themselves as "progressive" or "conservative" according to their customs during the Mass.
Given those considerations, I hope that we do not allow female altar servers in Arlington, much less in the Fredericksburg area (St. Mary, St. Patrick, St. Matthew, St. William of York, St. Jude). As petty as the issue might be, it will only divide the faithful in changes are made.
The following is taken from: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9305fea2.asp
The directive covering the liturgical ministry of women is given in the official liturgical instruction Inaestimabile Donum (no. 18), which says, "There are various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: These include reading the word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the prayer of the faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers."
If that doesn't convince you, perhaps a 1991 letter, signed by Msgr. C. Sepe, the Vatican Secretariat of State, will:
"I am writing in reply to your letter to the Holy Father concerning the possibility of girls acting as altar servers. The Church's traditional discipline in this regard was reaffirmed in the instruction Inaestimabile Donum, issued by the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship on April 3, 1980, and it remains in force."
There are no prohibitions against female altar servers, except (1) where local custom rejects the practice, and (2) such a move would be interpreted as the introduction of heterodox opinions such as women's ordination, etc.
Because, if you look at the Episcopal Church, women have been priests for quite a while. And, shocker, we've also elected an openly gay bishop!
And if I do remember correctly, it was women who helped jump start Christianity, prophetizing and all that. Was it not Mary M. who was deemed the 13th apostle, the apostle of the apostles? I do believe she was the true follower, believing in the resurrection then was told to go and tell everyone else - men - who did.not.listen. Surprise I know.
It seems that your support of women and girls being *disallowed* (this isn't a word btw) from leadership/service roles in the church is only injecting sexism into a faith that supposes to love everyone equally.
Can anyone prove to me why women shouldn't be priests, servers or acolytes other than that we have a vagina?
Why Females will not be ordained: On May 22, 1994, Pope John Paul II issued the encyclical “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis” which stated, among other things "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. LK 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful”
On October 28, 1995, the Doctrine of Faith headed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) confirmed that this teaching was an infallibe teaching of the church.
This goes along with the entire history of the Church, which Jesus himself founded, and is consistant with Jesus's *choosing* (this is not a word btw) of his apostles to be male.
Mary Magdalene was not an apostle chosen by Christ, but was a great disciple which all of us can learn from her example of her faith and obediance towards Christ.
Woman have a vitale role in the Church, just as they have the same vitale role a family. The roles may not be the same in description, but that does not mean they aren't equal accomplishments.
Last time I checked, males weren't trying to break down the convent gates trying to get in. Is that reverse descrimination?
The Church doesn't discriminate against anyone. Just because they don't support the "feel good society" certain requirments have been passed down by God that must be faithfully followed to each persons' greatest abilty.
Thanks for taking a stab at it Mark! That's good stuff!
Then what do you call not allowing gays/women to be ordained and/or take leadership positions in the church? From my definition of discrimination, this entirely applies.
Because you honor and *love* both Mary's doesn't mean you don't discriminate in the here and now. If women play such an important role in both the Church and society, why not treat them equally, allowing them to accomplish the same things you can?
And dude. Discriminiation is discrimination regardless of who's doing it so the whole "reverse" doesn't apply.
There have been women ordained as Catholic priests. 7 of them in 2001 actually, done via Canada.
Men and women used to serve in monasteries together. In fact, the Abbess exists because she would often oversee both women and men. Then someone decided that, *shock* women are inherently different only because we have a vagina and thought separation was in order.
(And yes, choosing is indeed a word.)
Was God discriminating against men since he doesn't allow them to become pregnant and give birth? Is it discriminatory to not allow non-Catholics to receive the Eucharist?
Discrimination of women would be to not allow them to participate in the Church in any way. Make them sit in the back of the Church while the more important Men do the real worship.
Just as non-Catholics can’t receive the sacraments of the Church, divorced members of the Church can't remarry in the Church without an annulment, these are laws set forth that all true Catholics must accept. There is only one Pope, even though many people, including many cafeteria Catholics, think they can act as pope and decide the rules for themselves.
As stated before, women are not allowed to be Priests because it has been decreed by the Pope, and affirmed by the Doctrine of Faith to be an infallible teaching of the Church. It’s as simple as Christ established Peter as the head of his Church and the apostles became the first bishops. The current Church is a direct line from the time of Christ. Who’s to say the Christ had it wrong???
Women play such an important rule in the Church and society because they are different. That is how God designed it to be. Treating men and women “equally” would hurt the church more than help. Just as the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests can't accomplish the same things in their current roles, each has a vital mission in the Church. Men and women can't accomplish the same things, but each of them has a vital role in their individual accomplishments.
Any "ordination" done to have women as priests has been in violation of Roman Catholic law, is not approved of, and they are not Priest and have not authority to act or claim to be Priest. If you can show me where Rome has accepted the women ordination, I would be intrigued to see it.
Can you show me where there was a stance by some decision maker to get rid of the dual monasteries? It seems to me that they just kind of decided that is was better for each of their communities to be separated. Traditional Catholic monasteries are thriving on their own separate paths and they don’t seem to feel “discriminated’ against.
You really seem to have a problem with the opposite gender, whether it's girls serving at the altar or women being ordained someday.
Recall that nothing in the Gospels would give us reason to prohibit these roles for women in the Church. In fact, Jesus welcomed female disciples and some of the most powerful teachings come from His interactions with women. It was women who first gave testimony to the resurrection.
Perhaps you should seek professional help for your gender problems and quit trying to drive wedges in the community of faithful. Men who are secure in their manhood don't try to control women and limit their potential.
Discriminating taste is good. Discriminating is good. Prejudice is discrimination without facts or justification, and that is bad.
I am not a medical doctor, because the medical schools discriminated against me... and that is good. I do not play basketball for the NBA because the NBA discriminates against me because I was not born with (nor developed) a body that could compete; most would say that is some pretty good discrimination. And in the end, I expect God will discriminate when He judges me, and that is what will make all the difference in the universe.
So I guess I'm a little more concerned about the final judgement for myself (and I pray for all you as well.) I'm not certain that when my soul is considered by the Almighty that whether or not we had female alter servers will even come up for consideration.
I would state that most young girls I know would do a better job of serving and housekeeping that young boys.... So I'd welcome ALL to serve as would the conservative priest that most influenced me during my formative years.
God bless us one & all.
There are many beliefs of the Catholic Church that aren't specifically spelled out in the gospels. I'm pretty sure the gospels don't specifically spell out the structure of the mass, like the language to be spoken, the way the priest faces the congregation, which songs to sing and when, which prayers should be said at what times, when to kneel and bow, etc, etc, etc... This was developed over time through the leaders of the Church, most important among those is the Pope. This decision includes women as priest - which was discussed earlier, and the allowance of female alter servers only as needed because of the congregation size and needs - as Shaun has laid out in the main part of the blog.
I'm not trying to drive a "wedge" into the community of the faithful, but trying to enlighten the faithful on what the teachings of the Church are. Sadly, many Catholics today don't go even follow the fundamental teachings of the Church, I'm not surprised that they would want to "change the roles" to what the feel is right. Not allowing women to be priests is by no way limiting their potential. Mother Theresa and Mother Angelica have had a greater positive impact on this society then many priests today.
Also, my wife says I don't have problems with the opposite gender (I asked)
Heckman,
I'm sure God will judge each person on his own merits, but he calls us to defend his teachings and the faith.
I'm sure there are some girls that would act as good stewards on the alter, and there are boys that don't act appropriately. Those boys should be dealt with and taught how important their role is by either their Priests or their parents. This just goes to show how lax people have become about their dress and actions are at mass. Those that are capable should be dressed appropriately as they come to worship. This still doesn't justify allowing girls to be altar servers unless there is a need in the parish for it. At St. Mary's we do not have that need and all of our boys are dressed appropriately.
There is a small, but incredibly relevant passage in the book of Numbers.
In Numbers chapter 16, a man named Core, amongst 250 other prominent Israelites, protested following Moses and his laws anymore. In fact, when Moses rebuked them, he asked:
"Is it a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath spared you from all the people, and joined you to Himself, that you should serve Him in the service of the tabernacle, and should stand before the congregation of the people, and should minister to Him?
Did he therefore make thee all thy brethren the sons of Levi to approach unto Him, that you should challenge to yourselves the priesthood also, and that all thy company should stand against the Lord?"
What Moses is saying is that these individuals had decided that they should elevate themselves to the priesthood, which is an afront to God Himself. In essence, they wish to make their own laws (because they no longer wish to follow Moses, whose laws should they follow other than their own?) and worship God in their own manner. Basically, this was the jewish, pre-Christ version of the Protestant Revolt (which is, incidentally, essentially what the current push for women's ordination is as well).
Please let me describe what happened to these people who decided that they no longer wished to follow God's appointed authority, wished to worship in their own manners, and wished to live according to their own moral/spiritual laws:
Numbers 16: 30-33 - (Moses is speaking about possible consequences for Core and his revolters) But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into Hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke assunder under their feet:
And opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance.
And they went down alive into Hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people."
When you read further, God sent a plague to destroy any who persisted in the revolt, killing 14,700 people.
When one examines this small, but incredibly significant incident, one must wonder why people persist in questioning the authority God places on this earth. When Jesus gave the Keys to Heaven to Peter, and founded His church upon him, granting him the authority to bind and loose sin and law both in Heaven and on earth, and that authority was passed from Peter to Linus, and then from Linus to Cletus, and so forth.
It has been stated rather firmly that women, who hold a prominent place in the Church, can no more change bread and wine to the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and a man can give birth to a baby.
Furthermore, it has been stated rather clearly both in Catholic Doctrine and in Scripture that homosexuality is an abominable sin which "cries to Heaven for vengeance"!
Now, as to your aversion to the word "discriminate", I shall say this rather plainly ... when I look at applicants to my school for potential teachers, I have to discriminate against all those who could be a potential threat to the integrity of the school, its mission, the students, and the faculty. If a man, who is either anti-Catholic (I am in charge of a school offering a Catholic education), a pedophile, a homosexual , a murderer, or in some other way incompatible with the mission, teachings, and culture of the school, then there is no way that I will hire this individual. The same is true in regards to the priesthood.
I'll address the theological reasons why women can't be priests in another post ... this one is long enough. :)
Rather than attacking Shaun, why not address the matter as regards the Church itself?
Please read the following article, and see for yourself what the Church teaches, infallibly, about female ordination.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201sbs.asp
For one thing, nowhere did Christ ever commission women to teach in His name and with His authority.
In fact, St. Paul explicitly forbids women to attempt to perform such functions.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent."
Thus saith St. Paul. Not even the Pope has the authority to overturn such a decree. If it was possible for a woman to be ordained as a priest, then she would receive all the faculties of a priest, and one such faculty is granting absolution for sins (the sacrament of pennance). In order for a woman to be able to perform such a function, she would have to have authority over the one being absolved, which according to St. Paul is not possible.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 14:34:
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says."
People who advocate the ordination of women in the Church seem to believe that they know more about Christianity than St. Paul.
Proponents of women's ordination will throw up all sorts of invective. Rarely do you find the proponent willing to debate the subject in terms of theology or salvation history.
Good stuff gentlemen.
The way I look at it is, if it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.
There are plenty of places for me to serve - the altar is not one of them. I even refused a request to become an EEM (and volunteered my husband).
We like the Latin and would like to see more of it.
We continue to pray for our priests.
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