- comment
Mark Gardner - body
- Don't you think that faithful Catholics got jerked around when they showed up one day and the Tabernacle was now hidden in a closet?
I'm sure we'll be able to adjust. Maybe they could print new missals that we all could read. Would that be too much to ask?
- comment Cory Chandler
- body
- It may be inappropriate for a Presbyterian to lecture a Catholic on the history of the Catholic liturgy, but I figure all those years I had to sit in Catholic school have to pay off somehow, so what better way than this?
For shame, Mr. Kenney! First, the catholicam et apostolicam ecclesium is not the Roman Catholic Church, as it indeed it could not be since the Council of Nicea of 325, or the First Ecumenical Council if you prefer, met under the auspices of the Emperor Constantine. No, the "catholic" in the creed means "universal." One therefore expresses one's faith in the universal and apostolic Church, particularly where the church refers not the building or the organization but the community of mankind united in faith.
Second, while the Latin does alternate in the Latin missals between credo and credimus, depending on the singularity or plurality of the orator(s), the sentiment I read from your statement is entirely incorrect: the creed does not affirm the faith of the individual, but of that universal and apostolic church.
Remember, the Council of Nicaea of 325 was convened in order to sort out what was and was not church orthodoxy--in short, what was and was not heresy. The statement of faith in the creed was "WE--those of us within this universal and apostolic church--believe...."
And, indeed, the original version of the text adopted in 325 says "WE," not "I." From the Catholic Encyclopedia (that would be RCC, not universal, catholicism), we get:
"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father, through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made our of nothing; or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance, or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, the Catholic Church anathematizes."
In 381, the First Council of Constantinople, or Second General Council revised the creed, creating the Nicaeano-Constantinopolitanum Creed. But even it has "WE."
Whether the creed of 325 or the Nicaeano-Constantinopolitanum Creed of 381 was the one declared forever the true creed by the Council of Ephesus in 431 has never been clear to me. Fortunately, it's never really mattered to me as a Presbyterian. At any rate, they both have "WE."
But for all that, the Latin Mass is the most perfect ritualization of the transcendental nature of God ever devised by man. What a shame you guys ever had that silly Second Vatican Council.
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- The Latin version of the Creed tranlsated uses I. Seemingly the Vatican currently is using the Full Latin version as the offical version. I couldn't find exactly when/where that happened. I also couldn't find where/when the latin version was created and a good example of why it is seemingly in conflict the Greek version. We vs I.
However" Creed" derives from the Latin credo, "I believe." The form is active, denoting not just a body of beliefs but confession of faith. This faith is trust: not "I believe that" (though this is included) but "I believe in"
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- Also, I went to Catholic School and don't remember learning aobut the Greek version of the Creed and it's proper English translation.
Must have been one heck of a school. And you still remember it. Wow!
:)
- comment Cory Chandler
- body
- No, I don't claim to have learned the Greek original at school, or that I would remember it today if I had--I haven't set foot inside a Catholic church or school since the late 1980s, and I'm rather certain I'd be struck dead by lightning if I did. But I do remember distinctly having realized that the Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed are rather different and setting about on a quest to figure out why. Now, that was quite a few years ago and I'm not going to say with a straight face I remembered all the details off the top of my head, but I did know where to go to refresh my recollection.
- comment Mark Gardner
- body
- It passed
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/14828205.htm
173-29
6 Comments:
I'm sure we'll be able to adjust. Maybe they could print new missals that we all could read. Would that be too much to ask?
For shame, Mr. Kenney! First, the catholicam et apostolicam ecclesium is not the Roman Catholic Church, as it indeed it could not be since the Council of Nicea of 325, or the First Ecumenical Council if you prefer, met under the auspices of the Emperor Constantine. No, the "catholic" in the creed means "universal." One therefore expresses one's faith in the universal and apostolic Church, particularly where the church refers not the building or the organization but the community of mankind united in faith.
Second, while the Latin does alternate in the Latin missals between credo and credimus, depending on the singularity or plurality of the orator(s), the sentiment I read from your statement is entirely incorrect: the creed does not affirm the faith of the individual, but of that universal and apostolic church.
Remember, the Council of Nicaea of 325 was convened in order to sort out what was and was not church orthodoxy--in short, what was and was not heresy. The statement of faith in the creed was "WE--those of us within this universal and apostolic church--believe...."
And, indeed, the original version of the text adopted in 325 says "WE," not "I." From the Catholic Encyclopedia (that would be RCC, not universal, catholicism), we get:
"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father, through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made our of nothing; or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance, or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, the Catholic Church anathematizes."
In 381, the First Council of Constantinople, or Second General Council revised the creed, creating the Nicaeano-Constantinopolitanum Creed. But even it has "WE."
Whether the creed of 325 or the Nicaeano-Constantinopolitanum Creed of 381 was the one declared forever the true creed by the Council of Ephesus in 431 has never been clear to me. Fortunately, it's never really mattered to me as a Presbyterian. At any rate, they both have "WE."
But for all that, the Latin Mass is the most perfect ritualization of the transcendental nature of God ever devised by man. What a shame you guys ever had that silly Second Vatican Council.
However" Creed" derives from the Latin credo, "I believe." The form is active, denoting not just a body of beliefs but confession of faith. This faith is trust: not "I believe that" (though this is included) but "I believe in"
Must have been one heck of a school. And you still remember it. Wow!
:)
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/14828205.htm
173-29
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