Looks as if whoever was peddling the “Cuccinelli isn’t a Marine” story just got rocked . From the Cuccinelli campaign:
Ken successfully completed OCS and was commissioned a Marine Corps Officer. He was deactivated to complete law school, and the Marines never reactivated him, as they had over-recruited lawyers and they refused his request to switch to the infantry. So, aside from OCS, Ken never served on active duty.
Earlier, Loudoun Insider on the Northern Virginia blog Too Conservative
(the blogmaster of which is Bob McDonnell’s New Media director Vince Harris) had made the following allegation:
I’ve heard various rumblings about this particular issue for some time. I’ve now heard it from a Dem source…
LI followed it up with this comment:
Shaun, I saw that listing all by myself. Someone else posted a comment about this a while ago. I’ve heard people wonder about this, along with Frederick’s supposed military experiecne as well. I’ve heard differing explanations from the Cuccinelli camp. Let them put out the real story.
Now now I’m not going to get into the who-shot-John about who Loudoun Insider is, or whether the opportunity to throw a wild punch at Cuccinelli isn’t terribly unexpected. Still, just “tossing it in the air” to see if it sticks isn’t the best of form.
Still, why is Too Conservative throwing this stuff at Cuccinelli, when it’s top blogger is consulting for McDonnell? Did Brownlee pull a desperately needed favor? More importantly, who encouraged Too Conservative to post about this stuff?
Nevertheless, I expect Loudoun Insider to issue an apology in 3… 2… 1…
UPDATE: The debate ensues below. Ironically, this is one I really don’t blame Camp Brownlee for… no professional campaign would throw a punch like this (I hope).
You couldn’t pick up the phone, LI?
JVH: Again, it’s not a hard concept. Whatever low blow you perceived was done by LI, who posts his own opinions without me or Vince’s say-so. It’s not a matter of “failure to communicate”, there’s no reason for any of us to run our posts by anyone else. As for admitting Shaun is right, you do realize that I’m a Cuccinelli fan, right?
Shaun: What is there to restrain? Okay, you don’t like something LI posted; that’s fine. At the end of the day, no matter how much you disagree with it, it’s his perception events, it’s his opinion, and it’s his right to post it. There’s no point in granting us autonomy if Vince says “anything that may step on some toes needs to be run by me first”.
Even if you believe that LI’s original post was underhanded, that’s your opinion. You seem to be under the impression that LI’s post was *objectively* wrong, as if there’s no other way to view the situation. Truth be told, even as someone who likes Cuccinelli, I didn’t have a problem with the post. Just because Vince didn’t think it was necessary to edit or censor LI doesn’t mean that he agrees with or endorses the post.
More to my original point, you know, or should know, that Vince and McDonnell have nothing to do with LI’s posts. Even if you think Vince *should* exert greater control over what LI and I post, there are better ways to go about saying so than accusing Vince of things he had nothing to do with.
Shaun, I have no direct links to the Cooch camp, and most of the ones I know can’t stand me. That shouldn’t surprise you! I know you’re a big Cooch fan, but I honestly think you made this out to be much more then it had to be. We’ll probably never see eye to eye on that, and that’s fine with me, and should be with you.
Sorry, TC isn’t run as a collective, we’re pretty darn independent over there.
Airing this out now should help your guy here. If you don’t think the Dems wouldn’t use this with all the money they’ll be getting from the DNC, you’re crazy. Cuccinelli is going to face more scrutiny than he’s ever seen before if he ends up with the AG nomination.
The original questions were these:
Still, why is Too Conservative throwing this stuff at Cuccinelli, when it’s top blogger is consulting for McDonnell? Did Brownlee pull a desperately needed favor? More importantly, who encouraged Too Conservative to post about this stuff?
The answers so far are:
We can do as we please when we please. Not telling. Still not telling.
Is that about right?
Rule: Anyone who uses the “I’m just asking questions” routine is talking out of their butts (to put it politely).
It’s just a not-so-clever way to spread gossip, rumors, innuendo, and lies and have a cover for doing it. Reminds of the idiots out there that where talking about how Trig Palin was actually Bristol’s child (e.g., Andrew Sullivan) or the various Barack Obama birth certificate nuts.
LI — we can agree to disagree, but again… if you really wanted to find out, all you had to do was call the campaign. In fact, if you had received an answer that didn’t pan out, it would have settled all your objectives nicely.
Instead, we tossed something in the air and reinforce the idea that (a) bloggers are reckless, (b) not anywhere near the calibre of journalists, (c) are an excellent method of testing oppo research, and (d) more willing to cut the throats of their friends for a hit or quick turn than they are willing to pick up the phone and get their facts straight.
Yes, I do blame Too Conservative collectively for mudslinging in this instance. And yes, your blogger-in-chief is trying to unify the party around McDonnell. That is not easily done when his associates are tossing wild charges in the air… and folks remember it.
Just sayin’. Not trying to squelch debate, but let’s not settle for a sound bite, eh gentlemen?
Still, why is Too Conservative throwing this stuff at Cuccinelli, when it’s top blogger is consulting for McDonnell? —- The answer is that the top blogger had nothing to do with the post, because he gave complete autonomy to myself and LI. As I keep pointing out, you should know better than to say “Too Conservative” when it’s really Loudoun Insider who is responsible.
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Did Brownlee pull a desperately needed favor? —- According to LI, he found it on his own. That may not sit right with you, but continuing to push this angle with absolutely no way of proving it one way or the other seems fruitless.
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More importantly, who encouraged Too Conservative to post about this stuff? —- Again, it’s not TC, it’s Loudoun Insider, and since LI has made his anti-Cuccinelli thoughts well known, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to accept that LI needed no encouragement.
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You’re looking for a conspiracy here, and I would hope that we all have better things to do with our time than to play this game.
This is ridiculous. Is this going to get us anywhere? Is this going to convince people that Cuccinelli is any better or worse candidate…or is it going to show bloggers as petulant?
What a disappointment.
In the grand scheme of things, this debate will do nothing but cause good people – and good writers – to avoid one another; and it will do very little to advance their cause or candidate.
I will say this, y’all have given me food for thought on the whole “group blog” concept!
Shaun-
I appreciate the debate and thought.
Just as LI could have picked up the phone, I encourage you, or any other Virginia blogger to do the same with me. I want to be accessible, and the McDonnell campaign wants to be accessible to bloggers, both in Virginia and elsewhere.
My number is 7033216936.
Regardless of where everyone sits on the primary battlefront, we are all united behind Bob McDonnell who as CNN said last week, is “the best candidate Republicans have fielded in years.” We will win this race.
Personally, I like Senator Cuccinelli, and have known him for years. I am in no way involved in the primary but am instead focused on electing Bob McDonnell.
TC right now has LI and VA Blogger supporting alternate candidates. If anyone else wishes to post on TC, by all means they’re welcome to shoot LI or VA Blogger a guest post with their opinion.
We should and are all united behind McDonnell, and that’s my one and only focus from now through election day.
I encourage anyone with questions to e-mail me at vincentrharris@gmail.com.
Shaun, I continue to believe you are exhibiting professional jealousy towards young Vincent here. Get off the TC is evil kick – it’s blatantly ridiculous. Have you released an official explanation and the supporting documentation yet? You continue to keep this alive with your bogus charges against Vincent. Send me an email if you want to discuss a truce at loudouninsider@gmail.com. You let up, I let up. That would be the best for all involved, unless you want to continue your bogus vendetta against Vincent.
“You let up, I let up.”
Yea…now there’s an olive branch for ya.
Vince – great comment.
See SK, you were barking up the right tree. These TC guys were just asking questions, you mean-spirited conservative!!!
The triggerman stuff is hilarious.
These guys are protesting way too much. Let them sit and reflect upon the massive error of their ways. Mark my words, they are going to keep tearing down KC. If you think that McDonnell’s consultants aren’t cheering Too Conservative on your dreaming, pal.
JVH!
Vince — fix your own house buddy. I know you’re a good kid, but what happens on your blog is your responsibility, o’ blogger-in-chief! At least you guys on Too Conservative are sticking together I’ll give you that, but you’ll never convince me that this was nothing more than LI getting caught and making Too Conservative look foolish. I’d work on a little message control on Too Conservative. Unity starts at home!
But when his perception/opinion is blatantly wrong and based on assumptions and false assertions, he must be called out on it and must correct his wrong. He cited a Roll Call article (that still exists, you’re right, Not LI, my mistake) and said “Gosh, I hear Ken’s spreading this and he needs to stop throwing this info around or prove it’s true” with absolutely NO proof to justify this. He took what was on one website, spouted it as gospel in an attempt to help his agenda.
A huge issue is what is LI’s agenda? Is he paid by Brownlee? Is he a Brownlee staffer? Did he have his dog ran over by a friend of Cuccinelli’s? We don’t know because he hides his identity for one reason or another. So he can throw ANYTHING up and hope it sticks, whether he finds it himself or it’s fed to him by Brownlee or Foster or even other members of Too Conservative.
Now, for LI to continue to content that proof needs to be presented is doubly laughable not only because he is anonymous but that Shaun has presented MORE evidence to support Cuccinelli’s case than LI did against him. The burden of proof should be on the anonymous blogger.
That said, professionally speaking, what Too Conservative and its bloggers post DOES professionally reflect on its members, whether one likes it or not. If we are supposed to be the side that calls for ethics and accountability and TRANSPARENCY in blogging then we need to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. If this is the style of blogging that will be coming from the right in the 2009 campaign, well, guys, we’re in for a bit of trouble.
I hear a rumor that Brownlee hates unborn babies. He better come out wiht some proof that he doesnt or the Democrat candidate is going to destroy him on it. We need to vet our guys now!
First of all, LI never said anything similar to what you have in quotes. LI linked to the Roll Call story and said, “I have yet to see any of his official bios of late listing this experience. That bio appears to be from his first run for office. Was the information supplied by himself or his campaign?” Far, far, far from what you’re talking about.
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Given that, it’s not unreasonable to assume he was seeking clarification on the issue. There are a number of ways he could have gone after Cuccinelli; instead, he asked where this information came from and why it’s not talked about in the most recent campaigns. Given the anti-Cuccinelli rhetoric that LI has posted before, I found his post to be incredibly reasonable.
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I don’t agree with the continued analysis, trying to split the hairs of Cuccinelli’s response, and I disagree with him on that front. However, that’s largely in the comments sections and not on the main post.
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But if we’re talking about burden of proof, sure, LI should let up and accept Cuccinelli’s response at face value until he has something concrete to point to that says otherwise. Along the same lines, YOU should accept at face value that nothing motivated LI beyond his own personal opinion, rather than desperately searching for a conspiracy.
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One final thing, you should really try and seperate your dislike for pseudonyms from your dislike for LI’s post. They are two completely different discussions, and if LI (or I) were in a position where we could freely post online and use our real name, I have every confidence that our posts would be the same. But trying to use this saga as a continuation of your warpath against pseudonyms just makes this entire mess even more unflattering.
Oh brother, this is rich. I do not need to produce any evidence. I am not running for ATTORNEY GENERAL of Virginia. Shaun hasn’t “proven” a thing – he’s put out a partial, vague, unsubstantiated explanation from the Cuccinelli campaign. This is very very simple – put out the records and put this to rest. You all are acting like you have somethig to hide here.
I am not paid by Brownlee of anyone else. I have never taken one cent from anyone or any organization for anything even closely related to my blogging. I don’t think Shaun can say the same thing. Is he or any of the other commenters here taking money from the Cuccinelli campaign? J.R., can you explain that convention sponsorship from the Cuccinelli campaign in the last report?
I do believe this whole AG nomination race will boil down to what we see demonstrated above:
Coochanoia.
LI – You can look up their names on VPAP and see if anyone is taking money. Theres no Loudon Insider so guess you are in the clear. Oh wait…
I like this logic… you can create a blog, and have your friend as a poster who specializes in distortions and half-truths that they spread about one specific candidate. Then, when the individual posts misleading & factually deficient rantings, you can claim that you are in no way responsible for what is posted on the blog that YOU run… because it was someone else who posted it… Really!?
Now, if Loudoun Insider started posting similar distortions about Bob McDonnell, does anyone think that TC would allow this to go on as well… or is it only permitted for the politicians whom TC has been critical of in the past?
I guess the bigger question is: Why would the McDonnell camp put up with any of this?
The attack the messenger game continues! What is so funny is that Vincent isn’t even the messenger. This is obviously part of some other agenda driven by problems some people have with Vincent, who dare I say has accomplished much more in politics than any of these commenters. He’s a real professional already in his young life, not an armchair activist like myself and most of the rest of you.
Is the curtailment of free speech going to be a centerpiece of the Cuccinelli campaign? Vincent doesn’t censor his fellow bloggers – I have full autonomy to post what I feel – you know, like an American citizen would expect to have the right to do. Get over it and move on to the real issue – release the military records and put this to rest.
Like I said before on TC. This has gone from vetting to vendetta.
Actually, it has gone from vendetta to obsessive vendetta.
KC4AG
Vetting implies you’re seriously considering the other candidates and giving all a fair shake for the good of the process and the party. LI isn’t vetting, he’s destroying.
I don’t know any Cooch supporters who have said they won’t back Brownlee should he be the nominee. Heck, none have attacked Brownlee as viscerally as some folks like LI have Cooch.
So for LI and others to say it’s “vetting” and good for the party is misleading. It’s good for them and their personal politics and gains and it doesn’t even help Brownlee.
How is asking a legitimate question and expecting more than Shaun provided “destroying”? Again, the defensive behavior surrounding this makes me suspicious. This is indeed vetting. Tough vetting, but legitimate vetting on an issue that could come back in the general.
Whats interesting in all of this is the obvious belief by the Kenney brothers and many others that it is inappropriate to question our Republican canidates on the inconsistencies in their record or public persona. This type of mindless blind faith led us to our demise the past two election cycles. To write of any questioning as some type of conspiracy while blindly accepting a brief answer as fact is ludicrious. Do not question one persons reasoning or actions when your own actions seem to be questionable if we use the logic you have applied to the situation
I constantly fail to understand why it is unacceptable to question Party and Elected leaders but ok to throw a million stones at our fellow activists.
LI,
If this is vetting, I have to ask you, have you yet contacted the Cuccinelli campaign like I suggested right after you posted this drivel? If not, it’s just a vendetta. You can’t expect Shaun to be your go-between if you are not willing to do it yourself. He’s given a perfectly logical explanation, and yet you and others continue to rant. One has now even outright accused Ken of lying on that thread. You all owe Ken an apology.
As for Vincent,
“He’s a real professional already in his young life, not an armchair activist like myself and most of the rest of you.”
Have you forgotten the rants he used to have about the “Group A” and “Group B” Republicans in which he clearly sided against Ken and people who support him as the bad “Group A”, or was it “Group B”, I forget…
The reaction to this has been bizarre. If Brownlee, McDonnell, Webb or anyone else dropped all reference to his military career in their literature or public comments, it would be noticed, commented on and inquired about. The LI post was nothing more than a question: why is there reference to “2d Lt. USMC” in Cuccinelli’s background and then that’s the end of it?” Sure, LI is not a Cuccinelli supporter, but asking the question is well within the realm of pertinent inquiry regardless of where he lines up. I in the past have stated that I consider it a demerit against Cuccinelli that he seems to have little to distinguish himself outside of politics in realms that I personally consider important – e.g., military service, academia, business. Others think that way, rightly or wrongly. It would be in Cuccinelli’s interest to bring out that military background. It certainly would matter to me to know about it and I would think better of him for it. I’m sure I’m not alone. I look forward to hearing from Cuccinelli or his campaign as to what the story is (that swatch of text in SK’s post isn’t clear as to its provenance. If that’s KC talking, he should do it in some form other than giving it to a blogger, even one as articulate as Shaun). It would make more sense to make a general statement himself. And, as has been pointed out here, it raises some additional questions. If I were he, I would just release the DD-214. That will show that he was a commissioned officer, honorably discharged. That’s all I or anyone needs to know. It would put this to rest and leave Cuccinelli free to say he was one of the Proud and the Few. I don’t care that he didn’t storm the Halls of Montezuma. If he kept his commitments and served honorably, end of story. My hat is off to him.
But I really don’t get the attack on Vincent. I assume it’s intended to be a backdoor way of getting after McDonnell. To what purpose? I guest-posted on TC for several months while Vincent was getting established in his Freshman year at Baylor. I’m sure he disagreed with some of my posts. But his style is to pick people who he thinks will encourage good debate and let them have their heads on issues. Both LI and VB have done great things to keep issues in the limelight in FFX and in Loudoun. Vincent never constrained my subjects or content when I posted there. I’m sure he would have if I were vulgar or blasphemous, but the young man believes in the power of healthy debate. He’s not going to tell LI or VA Blogger, both of whom have done a marvellous job of keeping the fire going at TC while Vincent has been out in the field helping Republicans in national, state and local contests around the country, what to write. He certainly isn’t going to tell LI not to ask an obvious question. Vincent is an altogether admirable young man who has lived by his principles and done a huge amount of good for Republicans in a number of places. I have watched him grow since high school. He gets out from behind the glowing screen, goes out and works for people he thinks are worthy, and is a fully engaged citizen/student. We all can be proud of him. Any candidate discerning enough to retain his services gets a good mark in my book. The clouds of consultants that hover around candidates today are not often seeded with honorable, accomplished young men of Vincent’s calibre.
The Cuccinelli thing will eventually get answered satisfactorily. It’s very easy. Either the man deserves our thanks for his honorable service, or there’s an issue about early references to it (for which there also may be acceptable explanations). Ken Cuccinelli can deal with it quickly and decisively when he feels the time is right (which I would think is sooner rather than later, but it’s his call). But for SK to attack LI for raising the inquiry, or Vincent for being the founder of the site on which LI raised it, is a peevish and trivial distraction. Just deal with the substance of the issue and everyone, including Senator Cuccinelli, will be the better for it.
RWE –
As founding members of the ill-defined “Group B” we are never permitted to ask such questions.
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We are to follow the liberal mantra of “moderate” R’s who stand for polls, rather than principles. Then, after profusely claiming to stand for nothing, we may be allowed into “Group A,” at which time all of our questions will be answered!
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If you could ignore the fact that all NOVA “Group A” Republican State Senators have been eliminated, that would also be appreciated.
BTW, my comments regarding Vince are not intended to say I think there’s a conspiracy here on his part. I believe he is allowing LI to post what he wants and is not influencing it at all. On the other hand, when there are posts in the thread that accuse Sen Cuccinelli directly of lying on this topic (with no evidence at all to support the accusation) and LI allows that to go unchallenged, then I think TC needs to speak up at least and maybe do some clean-up work on his blog.
NOVA you say:
“If Brownlee, McDonnell, Webb or anyone else dropped all reference to his military career in their literature or public comments, it would be noticed”
Of course, they all had significant CAREERS in the military. Ken at his own admission never served beyond OCS and commissioning. This is a blip on the radar screen and not something to campaign on as it would be raised as him trying to make himself equivalent with others who served on active duty for significant time. It’s called respect for those who served!
“The LI post was nothing more than a question: why is there reference to “2d Lt. USMC” in Cuccinelli’s background and then that’s the end of it?” ”
And Ken has answered the question. He served long enough to get through OCS and be commissioned. After he graduated from Law School his services were not needed. The Roll Call entry appears to be a standard posting of bio data off of a questionnaire. I suspect they ask the same questions to all they post bios for. Would you have preferred that Ken answered the question untruthfully in order to avoid having the information listed????
I don’t have a problem with LI asking the question, but LI didn’t do that. He posted a leading question on Vince’s blog in order to raise a question about Ken’s character. He and others on the thread then continued to push innuendo and non-truths to make it sound like Ken was in fact somehow hiding something. LI caused all this to happen while admittedly never even attempting to contact Ken or his campaign directly to get a clear answer (as Shaun did). In fact as late as this morning LI has blatantly REFUSED to contact Ken directly for an answer (somehow putting the blame for this on Shaun, which how he logically reaches that conclusion is beyond me). That to me is cowardly and underhanded and sounds alot more like a vendetta than vetting.
RWE – you need to distinguish between the post and the comment thread. Blogs being what they are, commenters say a lot of things and there really isn’t much one can do to control that. Some blogmeisters go through and root out the profane, scatalogical, and vulgar, but the openness of the medium promotes a lot of back and forth. Even you and I can comment there.
LI’s question was pretty neutral. We know that LI doesn’t have much use for Cuccinelli as a candidate. But if you look at the post, it was factual. Once you get down into the thread, it’s just all of us townies wandering in and out of the General Store, each having a point of view, some more refined than others. Don’t get too concerned about it.
I didn’t realize that “Ken” had “answered the question”, as you state. If you could link to it, it would be great. All I saw was the snippet in Shaun’s blog. It’s not clear whether that’s the Senator, his campaign, Shaun speaking for the campaign, or something altogether different.
I think LI would be very pleased to have Mr. Cuccinelli offer a direct statement and there’s no reason that KC should wait for an invitation. If you or I were facing a situation where someone had raised a question about the accuracy of our bios, we’d jump on it in an instant. If Cuccinelli or his campaign put out a press release, all the blogs and the mainstream press will pick it up and he will come out of this smelling like a rose. As I have admitted, had I known of his military service, I would not have criticized Cuccinelli as being someone with little in his life experience to recommend him for higher office other than wanting higher office.
Brownlee’s military career isn’t exactly something to brag about.
http://johnlbrownlee.com/controversies/senator-bill-dolan/
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You guys are gonna just love me if Cooch steps in front of Bolling. He’ll think a bus has hit him. I’ve had a year and more to dig this up and FOIA the enlisted records out in Kansas City.
If Ken keeps to the 10th Amendment argument and the law suit against the EPA….we’re cool. Step on front of Bolling, and I unleash the hounds.